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LionHeart
25-Feb-2012, 06:14 PM
Hi Lmc-ians,

Is it advisable to use dry clutch for daily driving?

Fahrzeug
26-Feb-2012, 07:54 PM
Hi Lmc-ians,

Is it advisable to use dry clutch for daily driving?
What on earth are you talking about? Millions of cars, buses and trucks are operating with dry clutches around the world serving their respective community since a very long time ago. What do you think?

zevth
26-Feb-2012, 08:21 PM
What on earth are you talking about? Millions of cars, buses and trucks are operating with dry clutches around the world serving their respective community since a very long time ago. What do you think?

A simple yes would have suffice I think...

LionHeart
26-Feb-2012, 11:15 PM
I was referring to those clutch with the very prominent ice-cream bell sounds.. Encountered those on evos, civic sir...

vin
26-Feb-2012, 11:22 PM
heard only tc ride need those..

Fahrzeug
27-Feb-2012, 06:44 AM
Multi disc multi clutch plated non liquid submerged, motorcycles like ducatis and NSR PGM4 fit them as stock for everyday ride when Doohan was still man. What do you think? And why are you asking? Do you intend to fit it up into your road driving car? :-)

Fahrzeug
27-Feb-2012, 07:03 AM
A simple yes would have suffice I think...

No. It wouldn't have because the question itself reflects a tremendous absence of understanding towards clutches. Leading the treadstarter with another question to the right direction was necessary to spur him to think. In which it helped when he started to specify. All clutches are good for daily driving. But not all drivers are good for the machine for daily driving. He has to find out many things himself by asking the right question and think correctly. That's how I train the customers and how many thinking technical personnel are trained. Spoonfeeding leads to nowhere.

Fahrzeug
27-Feb-2012, 07:07 AM
heard only tc ride need those..

As long as your bell housing can accommodate. It's not the distinctive ringing noise that helps the powerful engines from transmitting power. It's the lining material, clamp load, number of friction sides and contact surface that determines the efficiency of the clutch for the engine.

icekitten
27-Feb-2012, 08:42 AM
I was referring to those clutch with the very prominent ice-cream bell sounds.. Encountered those on evos, civic sir...

Cars all use dry clutches. That sound comes from multi-plate or those twin-plate clutches. Sound caused by the plates hitting when the clutch is disengaged (pedal depressed).

Not necessarily for tc cars only. What's key is the amount of torque transmitted. Higher torque NA (usually the bigger cc engines) also can use. Twin plates can take more torque yet maintain drivability coz two plates equals more surface area in total that the torque is transmitted to. A single plate clutch which can take the same amount of torque would have to be significantly bigger, so pressure plate has to be bigger & stiffer too. Means left leg needs more effort. Size may not be practical too. This is why some ppl use twin-plates.

Fahrzeug
27-Feb-2012, 10:32 AM
Cars all use dry clutches. That sound comes from multi-plate or those twin-plate clutches. Sound caused by the plates hitting when the clutch is disengaged (pedal depressed).

Not necessarily for tc cars only. What's key is the amount of torque transmitted. Higher torque NA (usually the bigger cc engines) also can use. Twin plates can take more torque yet maintain drivability coz two plates equals more surface area in total that the torque is transmitted to. A single plate clutch which can take the same amount of torque would have to be significantly bigger, so pressure plate has to be bigger & stiffer too. Means left leg needs more effort. Size may not be practical too. This is why some ppl use twin-plates.

The problem with foot pedal force can be solved by switching to pull type clutch pressure plates from push types. Twin clutches should come only in pull type clutches since they are there to transmit more torque, questionable sensibility when you include more contact surfaces without switching the clutch pressure plate assembly anatomy. The change in position on the fulcrum ring helps the operator to gain leverage on the diaphragm spring thus reducing effort to actuate the more stiffer diaphragm spring. A bigger clutch assembly simply gives it more space to create a bigger mean radius which also means more contact patch. Increasing the number of clutch disc is to dissipate heat more effectively which in turn helps to reduce the possibilities of clutch fade and ultimately clutch burst. Typing it here will be impossible with all the subscript and superscripts so I uploaded it in jpg format, thanks to the print screen button.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n298/arakyo/clutchformula.jpg

icekitten
27-Feb-2012, 05:37 PM
I think our CS3 is already using pull-type clutch. Exedy twin plate comes in push & pull types. OS Giken clutches apparently only comes in push-type so they include a conversion kit. Their rationale is "push-type is more reliable and less prone to failure". Anyway not too concerned coz I don't make that much torque to justify using this kind of clutches. They can't fit in the CS3 bell housing also I believe.

vin
27-Feb-2012, 09:00 PM
wa u both talk super chim.. don't really get it.. hahaha... gurus talk...

LionHeart
27-Feb-2012, 10:26 PM
Thanks for the inputs ;) indeed I am a bit confused on clutches.. I was more concerned on the particular clutches which gives out the ice cream bell sounds would give problems in the long run.. I mean is it good for daily driving? Cos I have yet to change my clutch kit.. Any reccomended clutches for me to look out for gurus?

Fahrzeug
28-Feb-2012, 12:22 AM
I think our CS3 is already using pull-type clutch. Exedy twin plate comes in push & pull types. OS Giken clutches apparently only comes in push-type so they include a conversion kit. Their rationale is "push-type is more reliable and less prone to failure". Anyway not too concerned coz I don't make that much torque to justify using this kind of clutches. They can't fit in the CS3 bell housing also I believe.

hee... Before everything, do you know what's the difference between pull and push clutch?


Thanks for the inputs ;) indeed I am a bit confused on clutches.. I was more concerned on the particular clutches which gives out the ice cream bell sounds would give problems in the long run.. I mean is it good for daily driving? Cos I have yet to change my clutch kit.. Any reccomended clutches for me to look out for gurus?

Why do you need to change your clutch kit?

dagger
28-Feb-2012, 12:44 AM
I think our CS3 is already using pull-type clutch. Exedy twin plate comes in push & pull types. OS Giken clutches apparently only comes in push-type so they include a conversion kit. Their rationale is "push-type is more reliable and less prone to failure". Anyway not too concerned coz I don't make that much torque to justify using this kind of clutches. They can't fit in the CS3 bell housing also I believe.

CS3 is using a push type.

icekitten
28-Feb-2012, 01:00 AM
hee... Before everything, do you know what's the difference between pull and push clutch?





I know. I stand corrected. :) Went to see pics of my clutch cover. CS3 is push type.

But still not concerned coz don't make that much torque to be concerned about these..

icekitten
28-Feb-2012, 01:06 AM
CS3 is using a push type.

Orh.......

dagger
28-Feb-2012, 01:09 AM
Orh.......

orh what orh.... LOL

when are you going on "the" road trip ar? LOL

icekitten
28-Feb-2012, 01:23 AM
orh what orh.... LOL

when are you going on "the" road trip ar? LOL

Too busy.. lots of things to do with my car.. unless my guru asking me.. then different matter loh.. Hor guru? :tongue:

LionHeart
28-Feb-2012, 08:39 AM
My mileage now stands at 120k, and recently felt the clutch sometimes soft when depress, after a few drive on the same day, it becomes hard to depress.. Any ideas?

Fahrzeug
28-Feb-2012, 09:43 AM
I know. I stand corrected. :) Went to see pics of my clutch cover. CS3 is push type. But still not concerned coz don't make that much torque to be concerned about these..

When your car comes with a push type clutch, it becomes economically impossible to replace it with a pull type because your clutch fork where your release bearing is mounted has to work differently. The anatomy within the bell housing has to be different to accomodate that. Your entire clutch pressure plate and release bearing has to be different too. Pull type release bearings are mounted to the diaphragm spring by means of a mounting kit therefore it pulls to disengage the clutch. Push type bearings being cheaper to maintain and fabricate according to the factory merely presses the release bearing onto the diaphragm spring fingers to create lift henceforth disengaging the clutch disc from the flywheel and pressure plate. Therefore it is not possible unless you intend to replace the whole gearboxfor you to change into a pull type.

Push type is normally used in low torque cars like the VW Golf GTI (1K1) Motorcode: BYD 230HP (169kW, 230PS & 300Nm) Even so, the clutches all come with a safety factor as seen in my formula above in which 20% is very common. Therefore the assumed torque level could be 360Nm instead of 300Nm leaving the door of possibilities of bringing up the torque level ajar.


My mileage now stands at 120k, and recently felt the clutch sometimes soft when depress, after a few drive on the same day, it becomes hard to depress.. Any ideas?

The most common problem I see when I handle clutch warranty claims are pivot ring (aka fulcrum ring) wear. This causes erratic lift which in turn leads to difficult gear changes sometimes. 120,000km on the mileage is a reasonable time to replace your clutch. Going back to OE is the best solution but being suppliers to Asian makes, Exedy should come with a suitable aftermarket replacement for your use. Don't go for the sintered lining version if you are categorically a road driver. Those lining wears your pressure plate and flywheel much faster than usual. And honestly speaking, chances are you don't need that if your torque level is not more than 20% above your OE specifications. Save your money for something that functions for your purpose, don't change for the sake of changing.

What is the part number for your clutch assembly?
(1) Pressure Plate assembly
(2) clutch disc
(3) release bearing

icekitten
28-Feb-2012, 07:27 PM
My mileage now stands at 120k, and recently felt the clutch sometimes soft when depress, after a few drive on the same day, it becomes hard to depress.. Any ideas?

If it's issues with the depressing, u might wanna get ur workshop to check the clutch pump at ur next servicing..

LionHeart
28-Feb-2012, 09:55 PM
Hi Farz, not sure of the parts number but it's stock, didn't changed before, called up CNC to ask the parts number but ended up they only quoted me the pricing of each of the item lol.
Icekitten, noted. Will check on the clutch pump next servicing. ;)

Fahrzeug
28-Feb-2012, 09:57 PM
If it's issues with the depressing, u might wanna get ur workshop to check the clutch pump at ur next servicing..

hee... Good one. Air contamination in the clutch fluid circuit.

BENSON
28-Feb-2012, 11:22 PM
Hi any bro know the parts number for the exedy 3 pluck clutch disc .

Fahrzeug
29-Feb-2012, 01:27 PM
Hi any bro know the parts number for the exedy 3 pluck clutch disc .

I don't know why are you guys calling it the 3 pluck, 6 puck 4 phark and so on... It makes no difference.
I think what you are referring to is the sintered clutch disc. Why do you need the sintered disc?

Are you driving the following car?

Mitsubishi Lancer 1.6 (CS3A)
year of introduction: 09.2003
motor power: 72kW
1584cc
Motorcode: 4G18

Are these your clutch assembly specifications?

Clutch Pressure Plate
Inner diameter: 130mm, Outer Diameter: 200mm, Pitch Circle diameter: 236mm
OE# MR980023

Clutch Disc
Teeth: 20, inner diameter: 130mm, Outer Diameter: 200mm
OE# MR980024

Releaser
OE# MD706180, MD749998

If yes, I have the Exedy parrt number for you. Go to Min Ghee and check if you need to.

Trust
01-Mar-2012, 02:00 PM
Fahrz I think some bros here might need sinter as their ride requires more torque and do not want to lose power due to slippage? Therefore I guess that is why some chose to install or fit up the exedy stage 1 or stage 2 clutch.

Fahrzeug
01-Mar-2012, 05:07 PM
Fahrz I think some bros here might need sinter as their ride requires more torque and do not want to lose power due to slippage? Therefore I guess that is why some chose to install or fit up the exedy stage 1 or stage 2 clutch.

Sintered lining has an appalling appetite for pressure plate and flywheel. It is known in the industry that we avoid that as much as possible.
Sintered is choosen for cars that transmit very high torque beyond 500Nm, industrial engines that generate 2000Nm+ worth of torque or tractors and How much torque does the cars we have here that generate more than 500Nm? What is the torque transferable for each of these so called stage 1 or stage 2 clutch assembly and how much is the torque generated by your car?

Is the sacrifice on the cost, flywheel, pressure plate, foot pressure worthwhile? Even a souped up road use CVR use the organic clutch and push type pressure plate assembly from SACHS. And does it make the driver faster or just a feel good factor?

I have only once in my whole 5 year career mix and matching clutches recommended carbon clutches to a 500Nm+ Audi S3, a couple of times recommended sintered clutches to commercial vehicles or high torque competition cars for Merdeka Race and Le Mans. Never once had to recommend that to a road car.

Coming to think about it... Anyway, the money and car is never mine to worry, I think some of the guys are simply exemplary when coming to stimulating the economy which I believe should be encouraged... haha...

kr45h
01-Mar-2012, 08:52 PM
Bro fahrzeug ... Evertime i see u reply .. always very serious .. But its good to let others know of wat they don't .. thanks for being nice to all in de future .. :) Cheers bro , indulge yaself in a pint of .. wats dat again ? Hoegarden ( if im not wrong )?

dagger
01-Mar-2012, 10:48 PM
Sintered lining has an appalling appetite for pressure plate and flywheel. It is known in the industry that we avoid that as much as possible.
Sintered is choosen for cars that transmit very high torque beyond 500Nm, industrial engines that generate 2000Nm+ worth of torque or tractors and How much torque does the cars we have here that generate more than 500Nm? What is the torque transferable for each of these so called stage 1 or stage 2 clutch assembly and how much is the torque generated by your car?

Is the sacrifice on the cost, flywheel, pressure plate, foot pressure worthwhile? Even a souped up road use CVR use the organic clutch and push type pressure plate assembly from SACHS. And does it make the driver faster or just a feel good factor?

I have only once in my whole 5 year career mix and matching clutches recommended carbon clutches to a 500Nm+ Audi S3, a couple of times recommended sintered clutches to commercial vehicles or high torque competition cars for Merdeka Race and Le Mans. Never once had to recommend that to a road car.

Coming to think about it... Anyway, the money and car is never mine to worry, I think some of the guys are simply exemplary when coming to stimulating the economy which I believe should be encouraged... haha...

I'm sure those guys were not referring to using sintered disc. The ones sold by exedy performance that are commonly upgraded here are cerametallic clutches, in 3 or 4 button types.

In any case.... it's their money and how they wanna spend it. :)

icekitten
01-Mar-2012, 10:58 PM
Haiya.. U all so cheem for what.. Simple.. Exedy Stage 2 clutch. :D

Fahrzeug
02-Mar-2012, 12:34 AM
I'm sure those guys were not referring to using sintered disc. The ones sold by exedy performance that are commonly upgraded here are cerametallic clutches, in 3 or 4 button types.
In any case.... it's their money and how they wanna spend it. :)

No. It is sintered. In the clutch development market, There are only primarily 3 types of clutches. Organic, sintered and carbon. And from these 3 groups, we have another bunch of materials branching out of the 3 main types with different properties suitable for applications depending on your requirements. 'Ceramic-metallic', 'ceramic', 'metallic' or whatever people like to call it falls under the sintered category.

Well like I said earlier... not my money, not my car, not my discretion and I encourage people to stimulate our economy. Just amusing myself here.

Trust
03-Mar-2012, 10:53 PM
Bros and sis on exedy stage 2.... is it durable... ? Worth the extra holding pressure and leg effort?

I myself is only on stage 1 exedy.. just thinking of upgrading to a stage 2 as... recently felt my clutch seems to be slipping at higher rpms around 6 - 7...

icekitten
04-Mar-2012, 03:43 AM
Bros and sis on exedy stage 2.... is it durable... ? Worth the extra holding pressure and leg effort?

I myself is only on stage 1 exedy.. just thinking of upgrading to a stage 2 as... recently felt my clutch seems to be slipping at higher rpms around 6 - 7...

Ur stage 1 is the organic clutch?

Trust
04-Mar-2012, 11:43 AM
I think so was told exedy stage one the organic with higher clamp load.. Was advised not to use stage 2 unless necessry.

icekitten
04-Mar-2012, 05:40 PM
I think so was told exedy stage one the organic with higher clamp load.. Was advised not to use stage 2 unless necessry.

up to u..by right stage 1 still can hold the torque & hp..stage 2 bite is definitely better though

Trust
04-Mar-2012, 10:01 PM
Hmmm.... means my clutch is wear and tear le ar? Means stage 1 is more than suffcient? By right which one is more durable stage 1 or 2?

ftorres
04-Mar-2012, 10:15 PM
organic one more durable

Trust
05-Mar-2012, 02:48 PM
ok got it. Thanks bro !

LionHeart
08-Mar-2012, 06:39 AM
Woah, didn't know there are so many types of clutches, with different stages.. Anyway, thanks for the inputs people. I guess now I have a rough idea of what really is a clutch :eek:

wind
23-Mar-2012, 08:19 PM
Bro fahrzeug ... Evertime i see u reply .. always very serious .. But its good to let others know of wat they don't .. thanks for being nice to all in de future .. :) Cheers bro , indulge yaself in a pint of .. wats dat again ? Hoegarden ( if im not wrong )?
haha i tink the miscommuncation wif fah ge is tat he's in technical pro mode... else we all usually in layman novice mode... ^_^

desmundo
24-Mar-2012, 01:57 AM
haha i tink the miscommuncation wif fah ge is tat he's in technical pro mode... else we all usually in layman novice mode... ^_^

Cos most of us are neither technically competent nor as wise mah ...we need one who can really share here... i mean you, wind! hahaha

desmundo
24-Mar-2012, 01:58 AM
so dry clutch better or wet clutch better ??

Fahrzeug
24-Mar-2012, 03:12 AM
so dry clutch better or wet clutch better ??

Depends on your application... And do you have a choice between the two?